[WCUSP] Fw: Interview with New Palestinian Information Minister

[Libby or Mort Frank]

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From: <moderator at PORTSIDE.ORG>
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Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 4:13 PM
Subject: Interview with New Palestinian Information Minister


> http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=107&ItemID=12324
> Znet
> March 14, 2007
>
> Interview with Mustafa Barghouthi in Ramallah
>
> By Christopher Pastor
>
> [From July 29 2006. Update: Barghouthi has been
> suggested as minister of information for the new unity
> government, although he has also expressed plans to
> pursue the foreign ministry post.]
>
> [Barghouthi was named information minister
> March 17 - Portside]
>
> CP: when you were running for president against Abbas,
> what was it like to campaign against somebody who had
> the US, Israel, so much money and support on his side?
>
> MB: For me it was very good. If Arafat had been alive,
> I would've run against him also, as a matter of
> principle, that this country needs a different
> alternative. I was running for two purposes: one
> purpose was to win and to be able to run the
> Palestinian struggle, which I believe we can still do
> better than them. Second, I was running for the purpose
> of democracy, to have a true competition. And I believe
> if we would not have had this presidential election,
> and that tough race, and if Fatah had not had to
> encounter that true competition in that race, we would
> not have a very good legislative council election
> later. It was a step to build up democracy, and it was
> an effort, I mean, it wasn't just me running in that
> election, it was the whole idea of establishing the
> Palestinian National Initiative (PNI) as a new movement
> outside the PLO, I mean, that there can be new
> movements in Palestine that have not been historically
> in the PLO, and they do not have to be fundamentalist
> like Hamas, because if you look at the political
> spectrum you have the PLO groups that have not changed
> much in the last 30 years, or 40 years, and then you
> have the Hamas fundamentalist and jihad groups which
> have a certain ideology. But I believe that there is
> huge majority in the middle, silent majority, that
> wants a different alternative. So me running in the
> presidential election was part of a campaign to
> establish this third line, the third alternative, and
> in that sense I think we succeeded dramatically,
> getting almost 20% of the vote. A new movement that was
> only 2.5 yrs old, running for presidency and getting
> almost 20% of the vote. Many other parties who had been
> there for forty years, could not get close and got 2%
> or 2.5%. although they were running against us, not
> against Arafat by the way, just 3 or 4 other
> candidates. But we managed to establish what we call
> pluralism and we managed to establish true competition,
> and that was very,very important, and if Fatah had not
> had the support of those who were employed in the
> government sector, we would have beaten them. So, how
> does it feel? It felt great!
>
> CP: How do you see, today, a potential political
> solution?
>
> MB: There are two options. And the choice is Israel's.
> Either we have two states, and for us two states means
> the end of occupation, every inch of the occupied
> territories of 1967. This is not a just solution, but
> it's a fair compromise. And I think Palestinians agree
> with that; even Hamas now agrees with that. So there is
> a majority of Palestinians who would accept stability
> and peace based on two state solution with the
> establishment of an independent state in the 1967
> borders. If that happens, then we have one solution,
> which is a two-state solution. So, that is one option.
>
> But it means Israel's ending the occupation of the West
> Bank and East Jerusalem, and a Palestinian state that
> is really sovereign, that has its own borders. And I
> think part of the solution is to bring in international
> troops to be stationed on the borders on both sides
> just to be sure that there will no violation of any
> kind. To me, this is the best option. But if Israel
> does not allow it to happen… We are witnessing
> increasingly, every day, a situation where Israel is
> taking more land, more land from the other side. And if
> Israel does not agree to a two state solution then
> there will be only one option which is a one state
> solution. Israel is now transforming the occupation
> into an apartheid, actually already has transformed the
> occupation into apartheid. And there are two things
> that I am  sure about. First of all, that Palestinians
> will never accept to be slaves of the occupation or to
> an apartheid system. Second, that a compromise that is
> less than the areas of 1967, will not provide a strong
> base for stability.
>
> CP: Israel is an apartheid state?
>
> MB: It is, absolutely.
>
> CP: What is your feeling about armed resistance vs.
> non-violent resistance?
>
> MB: I believe that while Palestinians in general have
> the right to resist in every possible way according to
> international law, there should never be any attack on
> civilians, there should not be any violations of
> international regulations, which, by the way, Israel
> keeps violating. But even if Israel violates them, we
> shouldn't. On the other hand, I believe that after all
> these years, that military confrontation can only be in
> the interest of Israel. There are no conditions for
> military struggle, and I believe that the best approach
> that we advocate, and I advocate, is a non-violent
> approach of mass popular resistance against the
> occupation.
>
> CP: So, morally and ethically Palestinians have the
> right to practice armed struggle but practically maybe…
>
> MB: Legally! Legally. We follow international law. We
> follow what international law says.  But, I believe
> that our first approach should be non-violence. I don't
> like violence. I personally don't like violence. I have
> a problem with violence. It doesn't only include
> military action. Even if I see a man beating his child,
> I have a big problem with that. So, it is a personal
> and  moral issue. In principle, I think we always have
> to retain the moral superiority against our occupier.
>
> CP: In 2002, you left the PPP (Palestinian People's
> Party) to form the PNI. What was the main reason for
> that?
>
> MB: The main reason for that was the PPP became an
> adjunct and a follower of Fatah, and it lost its
> independence. If you want a specific main reason.
>
> CP: Was there any particular policy that…
>
> MB: They simply failed to follow the program that we
> had written together- I wrote most of it - which is to
> be an independent force. And to follow their social
> policies. I'm a believer in a movement that is not only
> political, but also social. And I think they failed in
> that, and they would not allow us to form policies that
> would go in the direction of the majority inside the
> party, and I expect democracy. Another reason was that
> the period for which I was elected for the leadership
> of that party, and I was in top leadership, you know,
> had expired in 2002. And I was insisting to have a
> congress. The congress in which I was elected was in
> 1998. It expired in 2002. There should have been
> another congress We are now in 2006, and they still
> haven't had a congress. So I thought I did my duty, I
> was elected for four years, I finished my four years, I
> respect democracy, I do not  like splits, so my option
> in order to not allow a split in the party was leaving.
>
> And the movement that we created the Palestinian
> National Initiative, was on a completely different
> ground. I think it was some kind of simple democratic
> approach, which came out of lots of discussions with
> people like Dr. Haidar Abdel-Shafi who is a well-known
> Palestinian leader, as well as the founder, the main
> founder, of this party, and Dr. Edward Said. So what we
> established was really a movement of the future. We
> tried to liberate it from ideological restriction and
> stiff approaches. The most important thing in our minds
> is that we were establishing a movement that is there
> to serve the people, not itself, and the whole
> population, not only its cabinet. And with a clear
> political and social mission.
>
> CP: In the international 'community' who do you see as
> Palestine's friends?
>
> MB: The people. The people of the world. Whoever they
> are, wherever they are. I am pretty sure any people
> anywhere, any ordinary people anywhere, if they are
>allowed to get the right information in an objective
> manner they will be supportive of the Palestinian
> people. That's why our fight, our struggle is also a
> struggle for media, and for knowledge. We did a film
> together with Daniel Barenboim about the Joint
> Orchestra which Edward Said and he founded, the West-
> Eastern Divan. And I became part of the experience.
> That film's title was 'Knowledge is the Beginning'. And
> I believe that knowledge is the beginning. If people
> get to know the reality objectively, I believe in
> humanity. I believe in human quality, in people. I
> believe that, even if they are bad sometimes, there is
> an important human side of every human being, that one
> should look at and look for. And I believe that our
> allies are the people. It's just a matter of time and
> right conditions for them to realize what is going on.
>
> CP: Do you ever visit the EU or US?
>
> MB: Always. I visit the EU constantly. Of course my
> time is limited, so I go for very short visits. I have
> been in many countries. I insist on going to the
> States, and try to go and speak there and interact with
> people. My last visit included Stanford University, Los
> Angeles, Madison University in Wisconsin, Seattle,
> Washington D.C. I think I've already lectured in every
> important university in the states. Really, Name anyone
> and I think I've been there: UCLA, Harvard, Columbia
> Johns Hopkins, Atlanta, San Francisco University,
> Berkley, Princeton. I even spoke in Iceland.
>
> CP: Did you meet any resistance coming into the states?
>
> MB: No
>
> CP: Harvard has a person named Alan Dershowitz…
>
> MB: I always find people who oppose me. The Israeli
> lobby always works against us. But I cannot recall a
> single situation where it was hard. My talk is always
> full of facts and graphs and maps, it's about objective
> reality. And there were many occasions when they came
> and we had good interactions. It was never a problem
> for me. I just wish I had more time to do more of that.
>
> CP: In March 2004 Sheik Amed Yassin, the spiritual
> leader of Hamas, was assassinated by Israel. Can you
> say anything about that?
>
> MB: It's part of an assassination policy, that has
> taken the life of many people. Arafat was assassinated,
> I think. So, it's a policy. And it does not produce
> results, because they kill Sheik Yassin, but they have,
> in his place, so many other people. So I don't think
> political assassination ever helps anybody's cause.
>
> CP: So, this policy of assassination is not going to
> serve Israel's needs?
>
> MB: No.
>
> CP: But it's a policy. And you think Arafat was
> assassinated?
>
> MB: It looks like it. I cannot prove it.
>
> CP: You were part of the Madrid peace negotiations.
> What was the most important result of those
> negotiations, negative or positive?
>
> MB: The main result that was positive, was that
> Palestinians were recognized as people. Their rights
> were recognized.  Without that process we would not
> have reached the point where even the American
> president of the United States and the British Prime
> Minister stand in front of the press and admit that
> there should be a Palestinian state. So, in that sense
> it was a big success. And it was the result of the
> Palestinian first intifada. If there were no
> Palestinian first intifada, Israel would never have sat
> down and negotiated with Palestinians. The sad thing,
> is that the opportunity was lost because of the poor
> performance and leadership of the PLO leaders, who were
> trapped by Israel in the Oslo process. We could have
> probably gotten a Palestinian state and peace a long
> time ago. That's my belief.
>
> CP: You mean the PLO was being a little too soft when
> they were negotiating?
>
> MB: Not too soft. They fell in the trap of giving up
> too much in exchange for Israel accepting them and
> recognizing them. You can justify anything, except one
> thing that is unforgivable: to sign an agreement
> without Israel's commitment to stop expanding
> settlements. That is a fatal and unacceptable fault
>
> CP: What is the best English-language source of news on
> Palestine?.
>
> MB: Palestine Monitor.
>
> CP: What do you think we need to do in the West, to
> help bring about change?
>
> MB: I think what's needed is to solve a very basic
> question. Which is that Palestinians are equal human
> beings like everybody else. And we are entitled to the
> same freedom, dignity and rights that every other
> person has in this world. And if that idea is accepted
> then it comes natural that we should support ending the
> occupation and oppression of Palestinians and support
> the rights of Palestinians, including a state. But I
> think also that one very important point is finding a
> way of liberating people's minds in the West from the
> dominance of the Israeli-Americans in the news.
>
> CP: The Israeli lobby?
>
> MB: Yeah. It is dominating. The Israeli narrative
> dominates the media. And the media dominates the minds
> of the politicians and the people.
>
> CP: 99% of the people in the West Bank are very
> welcoming to Americans…
>
> MB: People here have no problem with America or with
> American people. They have a problem with American
> official policy. And people here are hospitable to
> foreigners in general. It's a very tolerant society.
> People like many things that are American. But they
> don't like American policy; because it's wrong. And I
> think the American policy with regard to being totally
> biased toward Israel, contradicts its constitution,
> contradicts the claimed American values, contradicts
> even the expression of the President from time to time.
> And I think the American policy in the Middle East
> contradicts the national interest of the American
> people.
>
> CP: One last question, and it's not really a question,
> but it's an offer for you to say something that needs
> to be said that we haven't already covered.
>
> MB: There is one thing I'd like to mention, and that is
> that there comes a time in people's lives when they
> cannot take injustice any more. And that time has come
> for the Palestinians. We are unable to tolerate any
> more injustice.
>
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